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Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:12 pm
by Flatlander
I may be wrong, but this is how I think you'll be doing upgrades. (At least this is how I imagine it, after hearing you describe Hades 9 upgrades and research)

So, I read earlier (I think) that you'll have a "Fighter Bay" slot on larger ships (some ships have more slots for fighter bays than others)

So Lets say we have 2 Flagships:
--Assault Flagship (Has more weapons, is more short range, more armor, and only 1 fighter bay)
--Carrier Flagship (Has few weapons and less armor, but 6 fighter bays)

So a Assault Flagship has 1 slot for a Fighter bay, and I assume you can place any "Fighter Bay" module in this slot and it will gain any actives/passives/etc that that module has.

I also assume this is how you'll research and craft items:
  1. You will research how to make an item (Unknown how you research)
  2. You will collect the materials to make this item
  3. You will craft the item with the materials you collected

Now there are 2 options for crafting
Option 1: Every crafted item is identical
Option 2: Crafted items can have randomized stats (Can maybe be influenced by the materials you used to craft)

So assume we have crafted an EMP Bomber Fighter Bay Module, I assume you would simply "Place" it into your Assault Flagships Fighter Bay Slot.
Now when using the "Launch Fighter Bay 1" hotkey you will launch your EMP Bombers.

(The above are all assumptions on how the game will work)


What I am really curious about is:
Let's say I researched and can craft multiple types of Bombers.
Does this make it easier to research new bomber-types in the future?
Do you plan for Bombers (by themselves) to have multiple research paths?
Such as:

I send bombers against an enemy and they all get shot down before they reach the enemy.
Do I have the options of trying to research and craft:
---Cloaked Bombers
---Shielded Bombers
---Fighter/Bombers (Bombers that also have guns to defend themselves)
---Fast Bombers (They are faster so they are more likely to reach their destination before dieing)

Can I combine the above and have Fast Cloaked Shielded Fighter Bombers?

This is probably what interests me most about Hades 9.
Just how Unique can I make my build? How far can I go into a single path?
Can I end-game have super-specific bombers.

Can I keep Bombers in my cargo, and switch them out when I need to?
"Ok load up the Cloaked Bombers into all 4 Fighter Bays, this enemy has no cloak detection"

I know i'm asking about something pretty detailed that probably isn't complete yet, but this is honestly something I could talk and theorize about all day.

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:24 pm
by Lord Tyrius
I think some of the originally planned crafting system will be taken over: As I understood, you can "craft onto" components, to improve stats/add bonuses (?).
Some part of my mind likes to think something was said about typical MMo-style "rarity tiers" for items as well. Gotta wait for Nick to correct me/go into detail.

But as you said, hardly anything is set in stone at this point I believe.

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:46 pm
by Flatlander
By "Craft Into" components did you mean something like:

First you use material to craft a Bomber Fighter Bay.
Then you can "Craft Onto" this fighter bay to give it different stats/bonuses. (Basically you'd either craft a module to attach it to a slot on your fighter bay, or you'd kind of "Re-Craft" your fighter bay with additional materials to change it's stats)
Stat Examples:
--+### Max Health to Bombers
--+### Damage to Bombers
--+### Move Speed to Bombers
Bonus Examples:
--Bombers are Cloaked
--Bombers are equipped with laser cannons
--Etc

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:44 pm
by Sypheria
Every manufactured component starts with an identical base.

You'll be able to use resources gathered out in space to craft an upgrade from a randomized combination specific to you.
A +10 to defense would require different resources from me to make than.
Resources are in tiers based on how difficulty they are to obtain (hostility of space, distance from Hades and rarity) and craftable upgrades are separated into these tiers.

Odds are we'll be doing small diablo-eqs randomized stat bonuses on top of the base item as well. We've already spoken about this possibility.

Artifacts are the most powerful components and they cannot be manufactured by players. They are only found via exploration, quests, fighting bosses, dungeons,
and raids.

Commanders power up your units/components even further and bring their own special abilities.

Commanders and components can be destroyed. So using your progression puts it as risk of being lost. (Aside from research and crafting discovery)

Research will be separated into miniature tech trees where you can only learn a certain amount of the items. So even if you learn everything you possibly could from a mini-tech tree, there would still be variants you would have to rely on another player to manufacture if you wanted them.

In the future, fighters will probably be their own customizable unit; if that becomes the case they will have their own components.

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:13 pm
by Flatlander
Thanks for the information Sypheria!

So you make it sound like, you'll have to make some "choices" as to what you will specialize in (since you can't just research everything).

Do you know how researching will work yet?
Do you simply have a Giant Tech Tree and you click "Bomber" and it says "12:00hrs"
Then 12 hours later you have researched bomber, and now you have access to either: Stealth Bomber, EMP Bomber, Fighter-Bomber, Heavy Bomber. Which each take "48:00hrs" to learn.

Or is research more like X-com, where you need materials to study first (such as finding a stealth-metal material) then once you do research on the material you found, you can then research "Stealth Bomber" and "Stealth Fighters" and "Stealth Torpedos"

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:45 pm
by Sypheria
We will have a mixture of the two systems.

There will be giant tech trees that unlock mini tech trees where you make the choices and there will be mini tech trees discoverable unrelated to the giant tree.
The giant tree is to make sure all players have access to a generic pool of tools (escorts, fighters, hulls, components) like how mmorpgs have vendors that sell generic items but better items are crafted or found.

Resources will be currency, rare and common resources gathered out in space and research points.

Research points will probably be generated by research escort units and space deployable research facilities. In order to bank the research points, players will need to make it back to Hades with the unit; similar to souls-like mechanics.

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:49 am
by Flatlander
Sounds pretty cool.

If you simply use research ships to gain research points. Then is it Theoretically possible to research everything? But it would just take a long time?

Or does researching one thing literally lock you out of another?

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:24 am
by Sypheria
Mini trees have a limit to the amount of nodes you can unlock. So if there is 10 nodes and limit of 5 then you would be unable to unlock 5 of the possibilities on the tree.

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:52 am
by Flatlander
I am hoping you'll have the ability to "Re-Spec" then.
Because I don't want to have to wipe my account anytime I make a mistake, or dislike a tree I went down.

It is VERY often in any games that has choices, that there ends up being 2-3 most effective ways to play the game.
People will do the research, and the math, and make giant spreadsheets, and compare every single combination of every single research node, and find which ones are the best.

New players, usually just log in and pick what sounds cool, but once they get more into the game, they realise their choices were "wrong" and they need to switch their choices to something that is relevant to gameplay.


Now, I am a developer too, and I know if I heard a player say what I just said above, I would think to myself. "That's just because those games are balanced incorrectly, my game will be more balanced so you can choose anything and still be viable competitively."
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect thinking, it was when I thought it 2 years ago, and it would be if you are thinking it now. There WILL be clear choices in your Research tree that are simply better for 99% of gameplay than other choices. So you'll have to design your game in a way that players have the ability to "unlearn" research and go down a different path.

**Edit** I realize I sound like an asshole above, but I thought about how else to present this idea, and honestly there is no better way. This is simply the reality of games with tech-trees and passive-trees. So I apologize in advance for sounding like a condescending asshat.

Re: Upgrades, Research, and Balance

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:02 pm
by Nick
Flatlander wrote:I am hoping you'll have the ability to "Re-Spec" then.
Because I don't want to have to wipe my account anytime I make a mistake, or dislike a tree I went down.

It is VERY often in any games that has choices, that there ends up being 2-3 most effective ways to play the game.
People will do the research, and the math, and make giant spreadsheets, and compare every single combination of every single research node, and find which ones are the best.


These features are still very much in the design phase, in the sense of how exactly we limit the tech tree's or if we even do. the most important tech tree will be the escort, and capital ship ones, which will not have any limitations that much is decided.