Exciting Combat

Come talk tactics with Generals from around the galaxy.

Re: Exciting Combat

Postby ColSmurf » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:25 pm

My expectation of space combat comes from reading the "Honor Harrington" novels and playing games such as harpoon and Air/Land battle.

Intelligence gathering, snooping, setting up ambushes, etc. is what warfare is all about and I hope in some form they will be available here. If I know where someone's entire fleet is, what fun is that. I should have to send out scout ships to different planets etc. looking for the enemy.

I should be able to conceal/stealth ships to hide them in ambush [behind a planet, powered down emissions]

Obviously small ships should have a speed/maneuvering advantage so they could dart in and out [though like destoryer's of battles gone by, some would call them cannon fodder] but enough small ships could overwhelm a targeting/gun platform. Or take hits intended for others.

I would like to name fleets and task forces, with easy grouping.

What about jamming suites in ships [ecm] that can cause weapon platforms to miss [this would be a great research item].

Space combat is like football, the quarter back throws the ball based on where the receiver will be, not where he is. A ship in space cannot just stop and turn on a dime [fighters could] so you are shooting based on where you expect the ship to be. telling different ships to do different things will be a key to fun IMO.

I might have a squadron of battlewagons traveling straight on, while sending squadrons of cruisers or destroyers on flanking maneuvers, that is what tactics is about, getting the enemy to do what you want.

will there be shields?
Will there be missle batteries?

You should have FTL limits near planets so someone has to "cruise in" and a defender has time to detect the enemy [by placing patrols in different places] not auto detection. Make a person work for the victory or defense.

just some thoughts I had, I wish I could be more detailed but that would take awhile. I am up to conversing with people individually to flesh out an idea should the intrigue be there for the dev's.

I have ideas about ground troops and how effective each type would be, and how the better quality the more [in this case CP] they would cost.

I could have a field day with ideas I have , I just do not know how to implement them all!!
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby Lord Tyrius » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:07 pm

Most of this is already planned :)
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby megamike420 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:12 pm

Great job guys all around on the graphics and game play, it is going to be a really good game when it is done!!!

sorry i havent posted but i have been playing the game with every spare minute heheheee

but yea hands down great game and awsome support. i salute the effort put to this game it is a great honor to be part of such a awsome acheivement!!
Peace comes with a big stick in my hand :lol:
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby Lord Tyrius » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:24 am

I agree, but the game will never be "finished" ;)
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby PerfectDeath » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:46 pm

Shields will be implemented fully later on as will FTL and fighters.

A FPS controlled fighter would be difficult to do because of the different rules that the direct-controlled unit would be under.
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby Biliboy » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:04 pm

You have a lot of visual only things in there.

To be more specific, what makes the act of clicking in a RTS fun? =P



What makes clicking fun is the immediate reward you get when something happens. Ships move, guns fire, bunnies explode. Reduce the things you need to click that have no visual feedback, and add in things that go sparkle when they are clicked. Keep in mind carpal tunnel issues and you have a 'fun' game, in the feedback sense.

As you probably know, based on some things I've read on the forums, close calls are 'fun' too... a gun that does 50 damage to a 100 hp target kills that target in two shots, very binary. The same gun that does 99 damage also kills a target in two shots, but leaves room for the target to escape after one shot with one health, instead of escaping with 50. An escape with one health is inherently more 'exciting' than escaping with a full half of your health.

Longer term 'fun' is seeing things built, buildings, ships, alliances and numbers. Have numbers that will always increase, despite whatever happens in game.

There's a neat book called 'Reality is Broken', written by a game developer that covers some of this.
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby Sypheria » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:14 pm

I don't get it. Edward Cullen sparkles if you watch him. That's one step and no one finds that fun.
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby PerfectDeath » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:20 pm

visual feedback do exist for some things, like ordering movement. Some games have big arrows to show what units are going to attack who after receiving an attack order.
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby Silligoose » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:22 am

One of the things that I really enjoy during combat in an RTS title, is tactically rich, dynamic gameplay in which many tactics can be viable and knowing the results mainly hinged on the tactics and execution of said tactics by both myself and my opponent during the battle, as opposed to a battle being decided prior to the engagement, as a result of builds/army composition. I'll explain a bit:

Many rts games (as well as rpg games), use attacks/weapons/spells that track - once fired, the target cannot do anything to avoid the shot. That usually means that when the two armies are in range, it comes down to stats (dmg, rate of fire, HP, buffs vs type, RNG accuracy/evade nonsense etc). Some micro can help sway the tide of battle by use of focus fire, special abilities (ie blink in SC2) etc, but I've recently played a game or two where the battle system encourages players to micro more, to focus on unit movement, velocity, formation etc once engaged, instead of clicking here and there, going for a concave and hoping that on paper your units are stronger than the opponent's, or that a special ability does enough damage to sway the tide of battle.

What follows, are battles that are more dynamic, more engaging, less repetitive and comebacks that are truly satisfying for me as a player.

The main features which achieved this:
1) Having units that can move fast enough to avoid shots
2) Having most of the weapons NOT track, so that players can actively evade shots, or at least mitigate incoming damage by flying proper vectors.

I've read about the massive battles that can play out in Novus Aeterno, but I've also read that the aim is for more frequent battles, with smaller armies and as such I think featuring mostly weapons that do not track, will help keep the game more dynamic and engagements more interesting, while at the same time opening more strategies and tactics to be used viably within a battle.

Since NA has a wide range of ships, with different firing arcs, different armour stats depending on side, varying movement commands and a variety of weapons, it could make for a unique experience, head and shoulders above anything other RTS titles offer - not only will battles be more dynamic as a result of more varied builds, but more importantly battles will be more dynamic as a result of a myriad of tactics available with one's army/build.

To illustrate how this could actually make gameplay more dynamic, I want to compare a game in which many weapons did not track (I'll call it GX) to something like SC2 (simplified explanation):

In SC2, players set their build orders, build their armies and engage, using the built-in strengths/buffs of each army. The players will assess the build order and composition of the opponent's armies and, most of the time, build units that are designed to counter the opponent's army through stats (eg buff vs type or hard counter vs type etc). In GX, where there are no specific buffs to a unit type vs another unit type, but shots can be dodged, or intercepted and tanked by units, or damage can be mitigated through movement - the outcome of the battle hinges more on the player's ability to adapt to the opponent's in-battles tactics and execution thereof. The biggest difference between SC2 and GX, would be when you play SC2 and you see your opponent's army, you kind of already know what he is going to try to do, while in GX you could see your opponent's army, you could scan and know what build it has and still have no idea how the battle will play out, because it will depend more on the in-battle tactics 9of which a few different ones are viable) used by the opponent and yourself, than by the builds.

To illustrate the point I am making, I'm posting 3 vids from another game that used to mainly have weapons that did not track. I merely post them to more clearly illustrate my point and not to advertise the other game. If I break a forum rule in doing so, please edit my post or inform me and I will edit as required. The other game no longer really features the dynamic gameplay as demonstrated in the first two videos and is typically a 'free-to-play, pay-to-win' game with less features/ships/weapons etc than NA where players fly to one another and slug it out, hoping their build is the superior one, while doing a little bit of micro, so I doubt anyone here would really be interested in playing it.

The battles that ensued in that game used to be very different from what one usually encounters during an RTS battle, with a wide range of tactics all being viable, from single grouped formation movement, to using a few smaller groups of units for the purpose of flanking/surrounding/baiting/tanking, to what I would call ordered chaos, in which units moved all over the place in order to gain a tactical advantage, which may seem random to outsiders, but follows a very specific battle plan. Unfortunately, the developers of that game decided to introduce more weapons that do track or weapons that fire their projectiles so fast they cannot be evaded anyway, along with making battles slower overall. The changes made gameplay less varied, less interesting and less rewarding, as most of the battles in that game are now extremely predictable: You are able to tell which units will do what in the battle, where they will go and who will win. Ironically the community voiced their disapproval of the changes that were made, as it simplified the game to too great an extent and I know many of the are looking forward to the release of Novus Aeterno :)

Vid 1: Demonstrating more ordered combat, where superior tactics and execution thereof proved the most important (the player who won could just as easily have lost had his opponent put a little more thought into the battle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsRAira ... CcwviVtadA

Vid 2: Ordered chaos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfT9A5gBtSM

Vid 3: What the game devolved to after a few changes that meant slower ships and very few weapons that do not track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayg6nbkiv1w


I've watched quite a few of the early build NA battles on youtube and I'm very excited for the release of NA, but I'll be honest: the battles did seem a little slow, with many of them appearing to mainly be slugfests in which stats played an important role and player interaction not being very apparent. I realize those were early builds though and the game most probably changed quite a bit from then, but still wanted to chime in on this thread. Given what I've read about NA, I truly feel if most weapons do not track, the game's battle system would have another layer to it - one other RTS titles lack. The auto-system that is planned, in which players can set up ship behavior on AI during battle, would help ensure the battles do not become too demanding of players, while the FTL feature and area denial mechanics can further help with tactics and avoid some pitfalls the other game suffered. Furthermore, it would give players a greater variety of gameplay and viable playstyles, depending on their time, skill, preference, economics etc, while most importantly, really making them feel satisfied with a victory earned through proper strategy, tactics and execution, ie if you want to fight with a massive army, you could, if you prefer using smaller armies, it would be viable, if you are looking to using guerrilla tactics, it would be viable, if the battle seems to be won or lost, do not give up, because there is still a chance for you to turn it around - the outcome of a battle would not be apparent halfway through it and a victory could be earned when all hope seemed lost.
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Re: Exciting Combat

Postby Sypheria » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:36 am

The early videos you see of NA stats didn't play an important role.

All weapons pretty much do the same DPM. Moving your units gives you defensive bonuses and getting behind your opposition massively increases the amount of damage you deal.
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