F2P and Lootboxes (Honestly I think they are a good thing)

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Re: F2P and Lootboxes (Honestly I think they are a good thin

Postby Nick » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:24 am

Flatlander wrote:Depends what kind of game you want I guess.

Personally I enjoy having a diverse community in my MMORPGs.
I want the Brazilian Mobs of people that don't speak english, and they walk up to players and ask "Br?" And if you say "no" or "English" They kill you.
I want the players who steal your loot, kill you, then when you message them to ask why they pm you "Because your mother is a whore."
etc.

I actually get frustrated when games start policing behaviour.
For example, we played a game where you couldn't attack players, but you could "annoy" them.
A player ran up to my friend and threw a huge amount of his loot in a nearby lake. (The loot weighed too much, so he had it on the ground and was going to drag it to town with him)
So my friend messaged all of his friends, and they trapped the guy in a dead-end hallway for 2 hours.

A Game-Master came and told my friend he had to move, or he would be banned. My friend explained that the guy had thrown his loot in the water, but the GM did not care. My friend refused to move and was banned, and never played the game again.


Now, I'm not saying don't give players the tools to deal with harassment (The ability to mute other players). But you shouldn't remove people from the game for playing in a "not nice" way.


This seems much more a point on how to deal with Griffers in a totally different game, I don't even see how a situation even close to this could reproduce itself in Hades, I mean you hate another admiral, you hunt him down and kill him.

I do not see how f2p or not have any real effect, I mean Eve online(until recently) had one of the highest pay gates to get into the game, yet it also is renowned for probably some of the best "villains" of MMO history. Then you have games like Dayz*mod or stand-alone which is also renowned for the brutal and fucked up ways players interact. it's not like buy to play removes chaotic evil players, it normally just makes them more interesting.

You also seem to be under a misconception that I want to force players to be nice, where in fact its the total opposite, I want to give players all the tools possible to deal with there own problems and live with the consequences of there actions.


p.s. Sooner or later every single admiral comes home to Hades 9, that's the crux of the whole player experience, in this hub peace is required for the survival of mankind, however just outside its animalistic survival. There is no good or evil, no right or wrong. just who makes it to tomorrow.
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Re: F2P and Lootboxes (Honestly I think they are a good thin

Postby Flatlander » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:17 am

I was responding to your quote:

"I don't forsee hacking being an issue at all, however, I do still think pay to own has other benefits along this line, i.e. being banned for toxic behaviour etc. Its impossible to really measure but I do think having a payment gate to enter does help produce a more pleasant ingame community."

You offered the suggestion that you would ban people for "Toxic Behavior" which triggered my response against that line of thinking.
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Re: F2P and Lootboxes (Honestly I think they are a good thin

Postby Nick » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:02 pm

Flatlander wrote:I was responding to your quote:

"I don't forsee hacking being an issue at all, however, I do still think pay to own has other benefits along this line, i.e. being banned for toxic behaviour etc. Its impossible to really measure but I do think having a payment gate to enter does help produce a more pleasant ingame community."

You offered the suggestion that you would ban people for "Toxic Behavior" which triggered my response against that line of thinking.



It was more of a general statement about how if banning means nothing then devs have no way at all of dealing with any situation on the fly. in the example you offered, preventing another player from playing the game, showing no sign of stopping could be detrimental to a game. Personally, I think it was a dumb idea to have characters have collision with other characters as obviously it would be abused in this manner. However, it is evidence of the impossibility for devs to plan for every single thing players will do to destroy other players and there own gaming experience. using the example of what your friend did, imagen if he figured out a way to block people interacting with a core NPC, and he just left his PC on all day destroying the game experience. that's definitely a situation where a ban is necessary, of course, that situation should never arise, its a sign of a failer in design, but its impossible to foresee them sometimes, and its something that typically would take months to fix. and just saying "sorry community but it seems XxDESTORUCTORxX has decided to block off a core necessity of progression, however, don't worry we are working to fix the exploit and once we have then you all can continue playing the game," i think everyone would agree banning him is the best solution while the fix is in development, and if every time you get banned for that exploit you got to rebuy the game, good chance they stop doing it.

Bans are a very situational thing, its impossible to judge them in a generic way. however their existence, and being as impactful as possible is very important. Maybe I should clarify I consider toxic behaviour something that is infringing on other players ability to play the game. Once again, in an ideal world, this would never happen because there would be no hacks or exploits that can achieve this. however, planning for perfection is dooming yourself to failer.
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Re: F2P and Lootboxes (Honestly I think they are a good thin

Postby Flatlander » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:41 pm

We have very different philosophies on how you should design a game.

Let's use your example of a player blocking a core npc.
I would resolve this issue by giving players the ability to PUSH other players. (even if the game is non-pvp, and you can't attack them, let players push each other)

This gives players MORE power, rather than taking away power.

Then let's say that people find a way to abuse pushing. I wouldn't remove pushing, I would add something else that gives players more options and more power to deal with the push abuse.
This way, with every update my game is getting more options, utility, and game-play added. Instead of removing a feature because some players found a way to abuse it.

Also, I would NEVER ban XxDESTORUCTORxX for playing the game. It is my failure that allowed him to use in-game systems to block a Core NPC, he is just playing the game as I designed it. I would either move the NPC to a new location that isn't easily blocked, or create multiple of that same NPC, or change the old location so blocking is not easy.
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Re: F2P and Lootboxes (Honestly I think they are a good thin

Postby Nick » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:56 pm

Flatlander wrote:We have very different philosophies on how you should design a game.

Let's use your example of a player blocking a core npc.
I would resolve this issue by giving players the ability to PUSH other players. (even if the game is non-pvp, and you can't attack them, let players push each other)

This gives players MORE power, rather than taking away power.

Then let's say that people find a way to abuse pushing. I wouldn't remove pushing, I would add something else that gives players more options and more power to deal with the push abuse.
This way, with every update my game is getting more options, utility, and game-play added. Instead of removing a feature because some players found a way to abuse it.

Also, I would NEVER ban XxDESTORUCTORxX for playing the game. It is my failure that allowed him to use in-game systems to block a Core NPC, he is just playing the game as I designed it. I would either move the NPC to a new location that isn't easily blocked, or create multiple of that same NPC, or change the old location so blocking is not easy.


** I would like to say I think this conversation is very odd, and I'm not quite sure what the objective of it is, my impression and what I am arguing against is: that you think no players should ever be banned, and although I cannot imagine a single situation in Hades 9 where a player would need to be banned, I see it as strategically idiotic of me to say "I will never ban anyone". **

*** FYI I actually don't think I have ever in my life used the word "Toxic Behavior" up until that post, but I couldn't think of a better way to say what I did above and I was lazy so I just said toxic behavior as a catch-all for whatever ultra extream yet unforeseeable case where a ban may be necessary. in hindsight that was not the right phrase to use as nowadays it means just someone being an asshole. ***

That said I think you are taking my examples both to literally and not literally enough at the same time xD.

If XxDESTORUCTORxX discovered glitch X and this glitch means no one can play the game while he is doing it, the fix to glitch 'X' will take 1 month to develop, test, and push to live.
- I think it is acceptable to suspend XxDESTORUCTORxX in this situation if he is refusing to stop, because the ONLY other course of action is literally to kill the title, shutting down an MMO for a month...

If XxDESTORUCTORxX discovered glitch X and it can be resolved or a workaround found that can be hotfixed in a very short amount of time,
- then I don't think to ban him is necessary, he won't be doing that much damage to the overall title as his trolling will be able to be addressed before it affects too many people.

If XxDESTORUCTORxX discoverd a glitch that ONLY effected his own gaming experence, and no one elses. - there is no reason to ban

If there is a feature in the game which can so easily be abused by players such as the ability to block passages by just standing there, Its a failing on the developer for not foreseeing it, but it does happen sometimes. How to deal with this, once again, like banning, cannot have a single overarching rule it is a case by case bases kind of thing. However, my general question I ask myself every time we look at any new feature is "is this making the game more fun, and will this make the game more fun than the other ideas we have on the table" especially with such a small team, we don't have time to develop features which honestly are not making the game more fun. Altho it is impossible to say, I would guess that the chain of creating options to get around exploits then more options for countering those options, etc, would probably be less fun than an expansion to the core experience, like adding in an auction house or something. and in this case, I think if you ask most of the player base to choose between "Auction house, or bumping into other players" most would pick auction house.



I ask that if you wish to continue this conversation (which I have no problem doing I'm Greek, I honestly live for debating xD ) it should probably be its own thread.
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Re: F2P and Lootboxes (Honestly I think they are a good thin

Postby Flatlander » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:51 am

I was hoping I was not being annoying with our back and forth messages, and am glad to see you also live for debating :).
I will make a new thread on this (Probably title it "How much Toxic Behavior should be allowed in an MMORPG").

As for the selling of Hades 9. I am sure you'll find a good way to do it.
I will be purchasing the game either way (I love the concept of an MMORTS and am glad someone is daring enough to try it, because i'm not haha)
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