Concerning the three main weapon types

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Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Arbitron » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:13 pm

I was reading in another post (about beams) that the dev team is having a bit of trouble balancing beams and missiles (currently beams OP and missiles are disabled). I had a thought about how to balance them as well as implement missiles in a different way. Currently, from what I read, haven't had the chance to get into alpha yet Weapons are as follows:
Cannons: Large amounts of damage up close, the farther away you are the more likely you are going to miss.
Beams: Large amounts of damage (slightly less than Cannons) that cannot miss, cannons output more damage up close but beams are better at long range.
Missiles: Mega amounts of damage, to the scale of they had to be disabled until balanced properly because they were almost one shoting ships.

My Ideas are as follows:
Cannons: Keep the same as they are, seems like they are fairly balanced.
Beams: Decrease the damage so that they would be almost pointless to use up close since cannons do superior damage but keep it so they cannot miss and kind of have them in a "sniper" niche, awesome for long range bombardment as well as kitting away from fleets.
Missiles: Decrease the damage so they are in about the range between Cannons and Beams, give Missiles an area of effect hit box that can hit bunched up ships, also give them a limited range (akin to fuel, where they just sputter and stop at a certain range) so they can't be abused as a long range AoE attack.
Here is a quote from another thread (about WMDs) where a dev expressed that he didn't like the idea of instant-kill weapons and liked the idea of discouraging blobbing:

"Zero time to kill usually means it is a one shot to kill attack.
I try to keep damage levels low enough so shots to kill are above a certain limit to prevent instant-kills.
Of course focus firing something with an entire fleet will instant kill most ships but that means your blobbing and blobbing is a bad idea when we get around to implementing Area of Effect weapons. For now, the only reason not to blob is because ship explosion damage is very high.
Thus the only crowd control is your own ships dieing. =]"

I feel like Missiles can serve that purpose so they are not out putting damage enough to 1-2 shot killing ships but still can have a different (and needed) role to fill.
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Sypheria » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:20 pm

Missiles are not disabled because they are strong; they are disabled because launching one causes crashes. Them 1HKO corvettes is as designed and will not change. If you want to have corvettes in a fight, either use anti-missile defences or bring multiple players to a ZoC.

Ryan doesn't like 1HKO, Nick demands it of missiles. Nick trumps all. I personally don't care as long as there are counters; and we will have counters, in the future.

Lasers are actually very weak when compared to cannons using fighters. Fighters are also disabled because the same crash for missiles is used in the fighter system.
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Arbitron » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:26 pm

Ah, fair enough, I guess that's what I get for posting balance suggestions when I haven't played the game yet.
How about this then, keep the missiles the way they are but add a different type that does less damage on primary target but deals AoE damage?
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby ViroMelchior » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:21 pm

Arbitron wrote:Ah, fair enough, I guess that's what I get for posting balance suggestions when I haven't played the game yet.
How about this then, keep the missiles the way they are but add a different type that does less damage on primary target but deals AoE damage?


I'm in favor of this. Missiles are traditionally a weapon that requires a reload between shots (since auto-loading entire missiles or torpedos would use a TON of machinery).
This has led to missiles being one of the most diverse ammunitions, as well as one of the most impactful per-shot.

Missile types I would hope to be able to choose from (especially with a somewhat fast change mid battle):
Huge direct damage to the location
Large aoe blast
Chemical weapon designed to create a field that inhibits specific ship functions
Minelayer missile that jettisons smaller mines in every direction on impact - doing virtually no damage to the target, but making maneuvering hazardous
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Sypheria » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:34 pm

Missiles like every other damage type can be anything.
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Lochal » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:04 am

My take on this in general in no way related to what is in the game.
Cannons sound fine as implemented.
Beams should vary but should not be guaranteed hits. Would also like to see things like pulse Beam(designed so something hits). Some ships rely on avoiding hits. I can see Beam weapons starting out with a 100% chance to hit and defenses can reduce that. For instance say a corvette has Aluminum Chaff as a defense and a Beam fires at it. There may be a 60-70% chance to hit or miss. If the Beam is a pulse beam it may have a percentage increase but less damage.
Missiles have a travel time and are a physical entity they can be spoofed to miss or targeted and destroyed by other weapons (if fast enough and able to target). Since they have travel time meaning they move they have a fuel and only go as far as the fuel allows. They may try and require its target (not another target) but if it runs out of fuel before impacting it is removed an no longer a threat. Some missiles should have AOE (like nuclear explosion missiles) that degrades the further from explosion origin. Other Missiles like Beam head missiles could shoot multiple Beam in random directions (since its 2d combat I suppose these would be fired in a plane).

I know its unrelated but the way Homeworld complex implemented a lot of this and it works rather well.
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Sypheria » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:58 am

Beams are going to have a miss chance introduced.
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Pandora » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:57 am

I think KEW's (Kinetic Energy Weapons, aka guns) should be the shortest range solution, beams/lasers/other DEWs (Directed Energy Weapons) the medium, and missiles the longest. Why? Simple. KEW's are both sublight and line effects. That is, you shoot them and they travel below the speed of light, in a straight line until they hit something. Range is the range you can be accurate at, however given that they are sublight a ship at longer range will have ample time to maneuver. At extreme short ranges, however, where the travel time is less then the time the target can move more then 1 ship length in any direction (aka where hits are guaranteed) a 10 kg projectile, moving at .3? That will do a tremendous amount of damage. DEW's share the same problems, however by nature are C or near-C weapons. Thus the effective range is much, much higher. Therefore the mid-range solution would seem to be DEW's. Missiles, by contrast, are sublight but can maneuver. You can fire them from a light month out at .25c, and 4 months later (assuming they have sufficient particle shielding!) their engines can come online and hit the target! These are, at least from one perspective, the longest range solution.
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby PerfectDeath » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:30 pm

There will be AoE missiles, I just need AoE attributes to attach to those missiles.

I am going to deprecate missiles until the counter measures are implemented simply because I'm seeing giant dreadnaught stacks with only missiles creating a blanket of fire. Without any defense you will take huge amount of damage without being able to engage them from a safe position. (even being close enough to be within their min range dead zone does not matter when there is a 200 unit blob)
The other reason is that I get many complaints from players that their ships "do not shoot" because they load only missiles and the missiles fire once in a blue moon.
Lastly, corvettes can be equipped with missiles, making them very difficult to catch if someone decides to actually use micro.

I'll replace them with long range cannons with narrow firing arcs.

Cannons are good at close ranges because their chance to hit is very high, if you combo cannons with fighter recon it will improve the accuracy allowing for more long range damage potential.
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Re: Concerning the three main weapon types

Postby Gruuler » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:25 am

Pandora wrote:I think KEW's (Kinetic Energy Weapons, aka guns) should be the shortest range solution, beams/lasers/other DEWs (Directed Energy Weapons) the medium, and missiles the longest. Why? Simple. KEW's are both sublight and line effects. That is, you shoot them and they travel below the speed of light, in a straight line until they hit something. Range is the range you can be accurate at, however given that they are sublight a ship at longer range will have ample time to maneuver. At extreme short ranges, however, where the travel time is less then the time the target can move more then 1 ship length in any direction (aka where hits are guaranteed) a 10 kg projectile, moving at .3? That will do a tremendous amount of damage. DEW's share the same problems, however by nature are C or near-C weapons. Thus the effective range is much, much higher. Therefore the mid-range solution would seem to be DEW's. Missiles, by contrast, are sublight but can maneuver. You can fire them from a light month out at .25c, and 4 months later (assuming they have sufficient particle shielding!) their engines can come online and hit the target! These are, at least from one perspective, the longest range solution.


This actually brings up a question of mine: will there be some type of kinetic "slug" weapon that we can utilize against enemy stationary items inside a solar system? A lot of the science fiction I've been reading as of late brings up the idea of ship-launched kinetic weapon system based around the idea that a several-ton slug launched at ship velocity's on a targeted arc will smash any stationary object in the system based on the fact that a station or weapons platform are generally launched and orbit in a predetermined path with little variation.

Also, it would seem odd to give KEW's short range since a bullet launched through space will only really deviate if it hits something else. Beams on the other hand will scatter the farther from the focal point they get making them seem like a better close-range weapon.

Saying that, I've only donated at the $25 level so I don't know what actual combat is like yet. Loving what I'm reading so far however!
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