Regarding taking over starting systems

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Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby Trisdino » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:30 am

So, in the latest livestream, the devs answered a question concerning what happened if a player in a starting system rushed and took all the planets, so that a new player spawning there was screwed. The answer was essentially just this: "A new player with limited resources would not be able to properly fund the necessary defenses to guard all these planets, so you would easily be able to take them".

Do you see the problem with that logic?

It only takes into account new players. What if a person, let us call him Bob, joins the game 4 months down the line, and spawns in a solar system where very planet is owned by high tier players who have been at it for months. Yes, sure, they ships would not be better, but they would have the resources to effectively capture and defend all of these planets, not to mention, their skill, even if they were in more or less the same situation, would outmatch you greatly.

And even then, if the individual player could not effectively control all the planets, what if they are in an alliance? What if several players combined own the entire system? Then the individual player would probably have PLENTY of resources to defend. How are you going to prevent this from happening? Is there anything I've missed?
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby Lord Tyrius » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:48 am

I guess Bob would not be spawning in a system with two advanced players and rather in a new one with other noobs starting at the same time.
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby Trisdino » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:36 am

Okay, I suppose that would be a fix. Thanks.

Though to be clear, I do not mean the starting systems of advanced players, I mean ones that they just took.
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby Sypheria » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:01 pm

A new player wouldn't be able to capture all the planets in their starting system. Auto balancing features will prevent players from doing that immediately.
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby PerfectDeath » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:49 pm

One of the ways you colonize and defend a planet is through recruiting troops from population.
Early on players who conscript a lot of pop will end up spreading the troops very thin.

A player who has played for much longer would have a larger pop base; however, new players spawn in new systems. So if the 'old' players try and rush new systems they will either need a LOT of transport ships (thus weak fleet defense) or they can only drop small numbers of troops at a time.

A new player will be able to build a fleet quickly enough and a new player does not have to do the fighting alone. They can talk with the other new players in the system or find other players who may want to help (either through the new player subsidizing the resource costs for the help or the help wants to keep an aggressive rival in check).

The thing about NAE is that we want there to be more options than just the standard RTS "base rush" mentality we've all grown up with.
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby Johnm81 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:33 pm

There are really two approaches to this problem. They can program complex systems of diminishing returns on net power, when someone expands as explained by PerfectDeath. In that situation the more one rapidly expands the more vulnerable they become as population trends slowly behind their expansionist zeal and that very population is needed to 'cement' ones planetary holdings. However, there are fundamental flaws with this approach. The biggest is the assumption that an aggressive expansionist is only an aggressive expansionist. To be more clear, people have many facets to their personality. And a player doesn't have to confine themselves to one play style. An aggressive expansionist can equally be a rabid diplomacy junkie. Seeking out relationships with others that aren't in his expansionist ways, this player will have a multitude of friends and probably be eager to gain membership to strong alliances/coalitions if they haven't done so already.

Suggesting that a new player can gain friends to counter an aggressive expansionist is naive because it ignores the reality that the expansionist is just as eager to make allies as well, and will be doing so.

The second flaw to this approach is the assumption that at time zero upon account creation, we are all at the same. This is not true either. People, like myself, will be coming into this game with a group of 10+ friends and so we start out with a huge advantage in the diplomacy meter. The concerns of the OP pit a long time playing individual versus a newly joined player. Preventing new players from spawning in old systems prevents that form of domination. But that shouldn't be your biggest concern. Rather, it should be new player 1 and new player 2 both spawning in a new solar system but new player 2 has ten friends that will assist him in his aggressive expansionist wars. And so in this situation new player 1 will lose all the time and diminishing returns will fail to protect him.

However, there is another approach. This approach entails providing the players with the freedom to find distant star systems that are open to them and relocate if their home system provides a one sided conflict. Opening up thousands of star systems to be explored and settled tends to be looked at as a cause of the problem of new players facing one sided hostile encounters. But on the contrary it is actually the solution. In conjunction with planet shields, having huge swaths of empty space dotted with open solar systems allows players a choice. That choice is to completely side step an aggressive expansionist by relocating. This is the only true way to have more options than just the standard RTS "base rush" mentality we've all grown up with.
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby PerfectDeath » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:36 am

A lot of accurate points, we've (us developers) have considered making newly spawned systems inaccessible to players who didn't spawn in them to allow time for the new players to establish their bearings (a week for example).

Johnm81 wrote:However, there is another approach. This approach entails providing the players with the freedom to find distant star systems that are open to them and relocate if their home system provides a one sided conflict. Opening up thousands of star systems to be explored and settled tends to be looked at as a cause of the problem of new players facing one sided hostile encounters. But on the contrary it is actually the solution. In conjunction with planet shields, having huge swaths of empty space dotted with open solar systems allows players a choice. That choice is to completely side step an aggressive expansionist by relocating. This is the only true way to have more options than just the standard RTS "base rush" mentality we've all grown up with.


a player : planet ratio of 1 : +1,000 (current system generation is something like 1 : 4) would need to have most of those extra planets to be pretty crap or else in a few years there would be a huge amount of resource generation and production available to players.
Or, we could allow rampant expansion but have devastating 'events' to keep un-fortshielded planet populations in check so that most population growth occurs within fort shield planets. Since fort shields are limited to 2 it would not be too hard for a new player to compete in population in the long run.

+1 Evil solution >=]
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby Johnm81 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:03 pm

PerfectDeath wrote:a player : planet ratio of 1 : +1,000 (current system generation is something like 1 : 4) would need to have most of those extra planets to be pretty crap or else in a few years there would be a huge amount of resource generation and production available to players.
Or, we could allow rampant expansion but have devastating 'events' to keep un-fortshielded planet populations in check so that most population growth occurs within fort shield planets. Since fort shields are limited to 2 it would not be too hard for a new player to compete in population in the long run.

+1 Evil solution >=]


As appealing as a galactic godzilla code may sound.... :p

In reality we are talking about two different events that can happen with opening up star systems for players to explore and settle. One is relocation and the other is unlimited expansion. We must see these as two different events as one is an act of self defense and the other is an act of aggression. We must not deny players the defense of relocation to be closer to allies or out of the way of enemies just because it can be abused by expansionists. Rather we should look to in game tools to hinder the abusive aggressive expansionist directly.

And do we not already have these systems? Isn't this the very goal of the Command Point concept? Every player has a set CP cap plus an amount that is increased by population. If you want to put a diminishing return effect this is where it should be, and as I understand, this is how it works. So let the player who wishes to capture large sections of space do so, they can watch all that territory be taken away as the diminishing returns on CP prevents them from defending it.
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby NovaBlast » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:12 pm

PerfectDeath wrote:A lot of accurate points, we've (us developers) have considered making newly spawned systems inaccessible to players who didn't spawn in them to allow time for the new players to establish their bearings (a week for example).


a player : planet ratio of 1 : +1,000 (current system generation is something like 1 : 4) would need to have most of those extra planets to be pretty crap or else in a few years there would be a huge amount of resource generation and production available to players.
Or, we could allow rampant expansion but have devastating 'events' to keep un-fortshielded planet populations in check so that most population growth occurs within fort shield planets. Since fort shields are limited to 2 it would not be too hard for a new player to compete in population in the long run.

+1 Evil solution >=]


I have to say i like the

YOU SHALL NOT PASS ....for a week

option better than the

an unknown race of intelligent bugs threw a meteor at your unshielded planet ...half your structures and population are now destroyed .....

although that option maybe be more fun for some devs ... points up to the +1 in the quote ...:p
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Re: Regarding taking over starting systems

Postby Hollow » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:58 pm

yeah there needs to be some balancing because right now I am able to colonize and have 30 troops on every planet in my system within an hour. possibly when someone crosses a threshold of planets then a fleet will attack the planet with say 50 troops every few hours in order to prevent them from being able to field an army of a couple of hundred troops on someone considering they have only been in the game for over an hour.
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