Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Novus Aeterno discussions; what more needs to be said?

Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Flatlander » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:16 am

Things that I think may have been removed from the game.

Ambushing other player's cargo transports.
In the original game, you needed to transport cargo from one planet to another to build modules and ships, with there being one big "hub" now. It seems there may not be much use for cargo transports.

Ambushing other players while they are completing a quest or fighting PvE enemies
It sounds like much of the content will be instanced based now (I saw warp-gate dungeons for PvE content get mentioned). So "Showing up uninvited" to a situation may no longer be a thing.
If I see someone go into a warp gate Dungeon, could I follow them and kill them? Or will it even be done in-game? Will they just access the Warp-Gate Dungeon directly from the Space-Hub?

PvP loot and progression
It used to be that you'd only be able to trade with people nearby your home world, so you'd be much less likely to have access to everything available. You'd have to make hard choices on what you'd want to research and work on. Now that you have access to an entire space-station hub that has the entire population of the entire game sitting inside it, won't this make it so everyone has access to everything? It will be unlikely that you meet a player that has new technology, or different technology due to everyone being able to trade with each other so easily.

Summary
I have many other concerns and questions, but as you can see, most of my concerns relate to the Persistent Open World aspect that was originally in Novus Aeterno. I fear that I'll end up in another Warframe style game. Where you chill safely in a lobby (space station) and then go out to do 1-5 player co-op missions.

I just really hope this is Open-World, and doesn't end up a dungeon crawler. If I can't interact someone on their way to their quest on the other side of the Galaxy, because they simply clicked on "Planet 459 - Quest 1" and started loading into a instanced match 200 lightyears away from the space-station, then I probably won't be playing.
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Aetherblade » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:27 am

We will most likely also go over these topics in the updates we are going to put out in near future. We have a lot to cover, so I can't say when exactly they will come up but I'll note them down so we don't forget.
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Nick » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:08 am

7 am and posting from my bed so forgive my English.

1 ambushing now honestly a lot more. Important then in Novus. You don't ambush Ai run transport between Planets as much, however you do ambush players on their way back to Hades, or just out and about in space, this makes ambushing much more engaging for both players as playing wakamole with interplanetary transports can get very boring.

2 most quests will still be in the game world and even the things we call "dungeon" still have their entry and exit on the open world map so you can ambush someone coming out of it just fine.

3 there is much more focus on rare components then just strategy up production power now so I see those taking a core role in the market. Also, this is more an issue of balancing than distance and how we deal with the trading of tech if we decide to allow it at all.

Just because everyone is in the same place does not mean the economy will become bland I think, just the opposite: trading with other players becomes a day to day activity now as there is always someone who will want what you have.

This is Not an instanced based game and the only instances we will have are out in the open world. The core of the game is actually travelling, exploring, surviving in the open world. You exit Hades 9 to a massive persistent universe, the only real change now is we give you a safe zone to return to but this does not make space easier just the opposite actually because we give you a safe zone to do your organization and crap it means we can make space itself a lot more intense because players only exit hades 9 prepared.

Every dungeon, every asteroid field to mine, every quest objective, is somewhere on the galactic map you need to make it all the way to that location and back alive, or if you are a badass you can stay out in space for weeks without returning to Hades living off the land and unsuspecting victims
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Flatlander » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:26 am

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my concerns Nick.

My main fears of an instanced-based game are mostly gone.

I guess my only other question would be - Will there be instances of the same zones?
(If i'm waiting for you to exit your PvE Dungeon in the "open world" is there any chance you'd exit in a different instance than I am in?)

Also - regarding trading.
Originally when I did thought experiments of how Novus AEterno would play out, I imagined players nearby each other basically specializing their ships to counter each other.
So in theory one player would upgrade long-range missile ships, and the other player could build faster ships to close the distance to deal with the long-range missile ships.
Then the long-range missile player would develop counter-measures (maybe mines, or tractor-beam tanks to hold the fast ships away from their missile ships) and the cycle continues.

So you'd end up with players with very specific builds and counters to one another in their local region.
These players then would sooner or later encounter players from outside of their region, who have upgraded completely different things, like Missile-Counter-Measure that simply shoot down incoming missiles combined with slow-tanky shotgun ships. And both players will have to completely adjust their gameplay to deal with this new challenger.

Now I feel that, since you'll encounter basically anyone, anywhere, at all times, you will either be forced to try to "prepare for everything" or use the "run from any battle that my long-range missiles can't win against" strategy.

When you play an RTS, you usually see an enemy using a certain unit type, and you immediately start Macro to build a unit to deal with it. But if you are in space lightyears away from your factories, building new units isn't really an option, you have to use what you have available. So if you encounter a certain unit type, you either need to have an answer to it, or just have to run.
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Nick » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:21 pm

Re multiple instances of the same area: We have no plans for this nor do we foresee needing to do it for any reason.

Second question: There are 2 parts to this answer, and the second requires a long story, sorry.

First : Fleet design focuses more on active decisions, not so much units. the fleet comp you design gives you options in the battle, how you use those options will determine the result. for example, a light carrier escort will give you some fighter, bomber, and maybe strike fighter missions available. it also does some general damage in the background. but how you use these missions is the real value of the unit, and these can normally be used in a variety of ways. effectively classic RTS counters are based on units, whereas our counters are more based on the use of abilities which include both offensive and counters. This is the core of designing your fleet, what abilities do you want, and how important is each one as well as how they combo together in grander tactics. In addition to this terrain can be used to your advantage, lasers don't work as well in dust clouds etc. (this section may make a bit more sense after reading part 2)

Second : For this design area I referenced a lot how Warhammer tournaments work (as its something I have been regularly involved in for the past 5 years) Its a similar situation, you make an army list, then show up and you have no idea who you will fight, you know what the meta is but not everyone will play meta, and also everyone else also knows what the meta is so you can have funny situations where the meta is Rock, so EVERYONE brings paper lists and its just endless paper vs paper.

In the ETC (europian team championship) what you see a lot is a mix of everything, and in my opinion what ends up working best is people who just do their own thing. in 2016 Athens ETC, I was playing for Spain as the "wild card" my list was totally bizarre and not meta or anti-meta, it was a very strange combo of sub-par units and alliances. and in training, i lost almost every game vs all the other members of the Spanish team because they all learned how the list worked. However, at the tournament in Athens I scored the most points of the team, because the enemy had no idea how to counter my list many times they could but they didn't realize it, my list had more weaknesses than most, but because people where not use to playing against it they didn't know to exploit them in that moment.

My favourite moment was when I faced the Denmark Spacewolf player (I was also playing spacewolves) and he looked at my army deployed and said: "I don't get it".

I know this is kinda a longwinded story but this is the key to how I want the fleet design to work, give people enough options to design there own combos, that they build their fleets for Action, not Reaction. You design your fleet to work in the unique way you like to play it, and you go tweaking and modifying it to fit exactly how you like to play and your strengths. The people who try to spam one thing, their counters are clear, however, the people who come up with unique mixes of units and combos, altho the counters exist, they are not nearly as clear.

An example of this in HADES 9: Bombers do a lot of burst damage, but can be countered by deploying defensive fighter missions to protect the target they are heading for, however, strike fighters can work to clear a bath for bombers. You could design a fleet that focuses on strike fighters to clear out all the enemy fighters early, don't even use your bombers, fake it by sending small pointless missile salvos to draw out the enemy defensive fighters, then overwhelm them with strike fighters clearing out the majority of the dangers to your bombers. then you can just go to town with your bombers. Fleets like this that are deceptive in their power are going to be the ones most successful.

If you run around with a 100% simple missile spam fleet, you will lose the majority of your battles, even if it is overpowered and the meta. Because the people who you can beat easily know it, and will leg it the moment they spot your fleet. and the only people who will let you get close enough to them will know that they have the counter to your fleet.

(this is a very extream example making many assumptions which will rarely line up so perfectly in-game, everyone is high skill level, everyone's fleets are at max hp, and no one has any other motivation then to just not engage in a fight unless they can win. however, I hope it did clarify a bit of how clever fleet design would work)


This is one of those questions its hard to answer in text and much clearer when actually playing the game, and is also something that will require balancing and polishing ad we start to get live feedback. however, I hope this does shed a bit more light on our plans.
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Flatlander » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:43 pm

I'm fine with the long explanations. (Me and my friends call it Theory Crafting)

If you don't mind I'd like to ask a few more questions.
How will you handle fleet limits? I assume you can't just build infinite units and add it to your fleet.

Also, in your Warhammer example, generally a player can own every single unit in the Warhammer universe if he has enough money. Meaning he has infinite options for determining what his "build" will be for the next tournament.

I would assume that in Hades 9, you will have to research, or build your ships (probably over a long period of time) and your options may be limited by your choices.
So for example, it would be like if you only could choose "one build" and you got stuck with it, and ended up fighting "rock" as "paper" it could be frustrating.
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Nick » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:30 pm

Questions are always welcome.

1. Fleet limits will function very similar to the way they did in Novus, CP (command points) basically more powerful units will cost more CP, and you have a budget of CP which is set by what kind of capital ship hull you select, i.e. a Support carrier type capital ship will have a larger CP cap but fewer weapon slots, whereas more combat oriented capital ship with countless turret and even a spinal weapon slot would have a smaller CP cap. this system is also used to help keep fleets fairly balanced in power, altho there will be a progression it's generally more lateral than vertical.

2. The tech trees will start with a majority of the options of types of units. so early on you can get the lowest tech level of almost any kind of unit, there is no "special unit type" which players only get much later on in the game. the progression comes more in the form of specialization. i.e. an lvl 1 escort carrier may have 1 bomber, 2 fighters, and 1 strike fighter squadron. whereas at lvl 5 you unlock an escort carrier that has only 4 strike fighters. this means in a sense that by default players start with an open-ended fleet vs a hyper-specialized one. this is both to prevent new players "playing rock, going up vs paper, getting destroyed and having no idea why". this also gives players the ability to early on test all of the functions possible, and start figuring out what they like. At any point, this also means even once you have made it down the carrier escort direction you can always go back and try another route having the lvl 1's in that route to use in the meantime to see if the general direction fits your style.

This style of progression to specialization also will be more clearly motivating I think while still maintaining balance. the lvl 5 escort carrier is not directly better than the lvl 1 one. the lvl 5 is more focused on its rule of a carrier, may have more squadron options, some other benefits, but it will have a trade-off of fewer weapons, or maybe a higher CP cost, etc. but the "cp cost per fighter unit" would be much more efficient with higher level carrier escorts. Ideally, a player gets to experiment with everything a bit, see what works for him, and be offered many progression directions to specialize in the things he likes.

(I say specialize in the carrier direction as an example, it's not that clear-cut and as I said before its more about the combo of units, not spamming 1 thing, but I'm just using it as a concentrated example. IRL you may want 1 high-level carrier as you have come to the decision you do not like carriers but you do want 4 defensive fighter squadrons, and the most CP efficient way to get those if you don't want anything else is, for example, a lvl7 Light carrier escort, which has low HP and fucks all weapons but it does give you the 4 fighters you need for this specific fleet combo while using as little CP as possible.)
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Lord Tyrius » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:18 am

Is the CP how many units you can have at a time, or how much you can deploy from HADES? I mean can you have a lvl 7 carrier and warship and "swap" them without loosing progress?
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Re: Questions about Hades 9 (Open World vs Instances)

Postby Nick » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:06 am

Lord Tyrius wrote:Is the CP how many units you can have at a time, or how much you can deploy from HADES? I mean can you have a lvl 7 carrier and warship and "swap" them without loosing progress?


How many units you can deploy from hades, you will have massive docks to store many escorts, as well as backups for when you die etc. stockpiling them. you can also buy and trade escorts as if they were items. and find escorts of higher rarity.
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